fidonews - FidoNet

Wards definition of

Lee Lofaso — Sat, 19 May 2012 21:23:38 GMT

Hello Ward,

 DS>> You are
 DS>> and have been making things up when you claim that that language is
 DS>> different in any substantial way.

WD>Even that is an interpretation and an impression.

How *dare* you challenge the *authoritative* and *official*
interpretation of the Ice Queen's concubine, King Dale I!
Alice may have escaped the wrath of those who wanted her head,
but you are not a little girl!  So there!  Off with your head!
The Ice Queen (and her concubine) demand it!

--Lee

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Janis defintions...

Lee Lofaso — Sat, 19 May 2012 21:23:32 GMT

Hello Michiel,

 JK>> No one can stipulate where you get your traffic from.

 MVDV>> For a leaf node that would be true. *Cs have some obligations.

 DS>> Why do you think that the right to obtain echomail traffic from any
 DS>> source isn't true for everyone,

 MvdV> Where  did I mention echomail? I DID mention the Fidonews file echo though
 MvdV> in relation with the *Cs duty to make fidonews available.

Which version?  There is one version put forth by the editor/moderator
of the Fidonews, and there is different version put forth by a madwoman
from New York who claims to be a madman from Texas known as Nick Kill,
who has apparently been AWOL for several weeks/months/years...

 DS>> What obligations do the *Cs have with respect to echomail?  (Answer =
 DS>> none).   NCs have an obligation to receive and forward netmail for
 DS>> their net -- and IIRC, that obligation is not true for RCs or ZCs.

 MvdV> Plus that *cs have an obligation to make Fidonews available.

Which version?  There is one version...

 JK>> The NAB's decision to not carry Bjorn's version is a relief. That
 JK>> is not a ZC decision, but a backbone decision,

 MVDV>> We all know it would not have happened if ZC1 had vetoed it...

 DS>> How could the ZC1 have vetoed anything with respect to echomail.  Not
 DS>> possible.

 MvdV> She could have vetoed the two RCs decision to block distribution of the
 MvdV> fidonews file echo.

The Ice Queen is like the Lizard King!  She can do anything!
Including distributing the fidonews file echo all by herself!

"I am the Lizard King!  I can do anything!" - Jim Morrison

 JK>> supported by all three Zone 1 backbone star systems.

 MVDV>> The sysops of the three backbone systems are not grunt
 MVDV>> sysops however. All three carry a coordinator position. One
 MVDV>> ZC and two RCs.

 DS>> So what?  Your point is?

 MvdV> As already stated: they are failing in their duty to make fdonews avialabe

Which version?  There is one version...

--Lee

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Wards definition of

Ross Cassell — Sat, 19 May 2012 10:55:14 GMT

Hello Ward!

19 May 12 08:21, you wrote to Roy Witt:

 RW>> That's because your attitude as a self-conceited arrogant dictator
 RW>> needs to be adjusted.

 WD> The whole of Z2 is full of dictatorial stories about me. Right?

Legendary!

==
Ross
Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info

Holy Water is to a vampire as Austerity is to a European!

... Todays Democrats and Socialists, is there any difference?
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Janis defintions...

Ross Cassell — Sat, 19 May 2012 10:52:22 GMT

Hello Dale!

18 May 12 23:29, you wrote to Michiel Van Der Vlist:

 DS> You are not making any sense.   I get both versions of Fidonews from
 DS> Ross. He happens to be RC18 at the moment -- but that is irrelevant.
 DS> Neither ZC2 nor RC17 have anything to do with the copy I get.

Wont matter, Van Der Spock has dominion over the systems of others..


==
Ross
Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info

Holy Water is to a vampire as Austerity is to a European!

... Todays Democrats and Socialists, is there any difference?
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Re: Janis defintions...

Ward Dossche — Sat, 19 May 2012 09:23:12 GMT

DS>WD> The attempt at change occurred strictly along predefined paths.
 
DS> It is a fact that it took you a long time make any action on the
DS> proposed change as you had agreed to do before the process started.
DS> You had to be prodded multiple times by those involved.
 
On the contrary ... I was on the side of the initiative ...
 
 \%/@rd 

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Re: Wards definition of

Ward Dossche — Sat, 19 May 2012 09:21:14 GMT

RW>WD> You do seem to write an awful lot of messages to me nevertheless. So
RW>WD> are Ross, Janis, Dale ...
 
RW> That's because your attitude as a self-conceited arrogant dictator needs
RW> to be adjusted.
 
The whole of Z2 is full of dictatorial stories about me. Right?
 
 \%/@rd 

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Re: Janis defintions...

Dale Shipp — Sat, 19 May 2012 00:25:04 GMT

 -=> On 05-18-12  09:43,  Ward Dossche <=-
 -=> spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: Janis defintions... <=-

 DS> MVDV> Rewriting history? Bullshit! It was nor Ward that was
 DS> MVDV> repsonsible for the failure of the last attempt to change
 DS> MVDV> P4.
 
 DS> I agree with you.  Ward did drag his feet at one stage after we sent him
 DS> a finished draft, but eventually got the RCs to look at it.

 WD> You make it appear as though I opposed the change while I 
 WD> was actually an avid supporter.

Learn to read.   I was defending that you were not responsible for the
failure of the attempted change.

 WD> The attempt at change occurred strictly along predefined paths.

It is a fact that it took you a long time make any action on the
proposed change as you had agreed to do before the process started.
You had to be prodded multiple times by those involved.

                               Dale Shipp
                  fido_261_1466 (at) comcast (dot) net
                              (1:261/1466)




... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 23:29:15, 18 May 2012
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

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Re: Wards definition of

Dale Shipp — Sat, 19 May 2012 00:30:02 GMT

 -=> On 05-18-12  09:42,  Ward Dossche <=-
 -=> spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: Wards definition of <=-

 DS> "That" the language for election of a ZC is different from the language
 DS> for the election (or removal) of the IC?
 WD> 
 WD> It certainly is.

Not hardly.  The two sections are identical except for a replacement of
"RC elect ZC" with "ZC elect(or remove) IC".  Please explain how they
are so different in your mind-- or shut up.
 
 DS> Or "that" you are making things up when you repeat your claim of Z2 has
 DS> all the votes?

 WD> Z2 has a right to be attributed a higher weight in the decision making
 WD> process, if there ever still is going to be one, such as Z1 
 WD> exercised it in the pre-1994 days when it was larger and no-
 WD> one disputed that ...

Z2 has no such right until P4 is amended to give it that right.  If it
is a vote of the ZCs, then a majority is what is required.  That is 3
ZCs now that Z6 is gone (before a majority was 4 ZCs).  If it is a vote
of RCs, then the numbers of RCs count -- even including the empty
regions of Z2.

                               Dale Shipp
                  fido_261_1466 (at) comcast (dot) net
                              (1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 23:24:45, 18 May 2012
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

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Re: Janis defintions...

Dale Shipp — Sat, 19 May 2012 00:29:00 GMT

 -=> On 05-18-12  09:23,  Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
 -=> spoke to Dale Shipp about Janis defintions... <=-

 MVDV>> As already stated: they are failing in their duty to make
 MVDV>> fidonews avialabe
 
 DS> As already stated: It is available, at least to me.

 MVDV> No thanks to ZC2, RC17 or RC18.

You are not making any sense.   I get both versions of Fidonews from
Ross. He happens to be RC18 at the moment -- but that is irrelevant.
Neither ZC2 nor RC17 have anything to do with the copy I get.

                               Dale Shipp
                  fido_261_1466 (at) comcast (dot) net
                              (1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 23:22:24, 18 May 2012
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

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Wards definition of

Roy Witt — Fri, 18 May 2012 06:02:40 GMT

18 May 12 09:41, Ward Dossche wrote to Roy Witt:


 RW>> WD> Even that is an interpretation and an impression.

 RW>> So is yours...not that anyone is paying any attention to you.

 WD> You do seem to write an awful lot of messages to me nevertheless. So
 WD> are Ross, Janis, Dale ...

That's because your attitude as a self-conceited arrogant dictator needs
to be adjusted.


                R\%/itt



... besides, IMNSHO, Ward Dossche should resign as ZC2 and surrender his
... net node-number to the ZCC !            - Cato the Elder -


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Fidonews v29 n18 run by me.

Roy Witt — Fri, 18 May 2012 06:11:36 GMT

18 May 12 06:53, Robert Bashe wrote to Roy Witt:

 RW>> Citizens are less prone to thievery when they're confronted with
 RW>> large monetary fines, jail sentences and a lifetime record as a
 RW>> thief...

 RB> That's a belief that has often been expressed through the ages, but
 RB> somehow crime still exists, regardless of how draconian the
 RB> punishments.

Like the old cliche' goes: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't
make him drink.

What we have is a situation of too many humans being added to the gene
pool.

There are those who are older and supposedly wiser, who know that the
repercussions of their actions will lead them to jail instead of self
gratification in doing something they know is illegal.

Meanwhile, there are those who have been added to the gene pool who have
no idea what the repercussions will be, until it's too late. Because they
have failed to get familiar or know the law; Voila, they're in trouble.

 RB> The problem is naturally the question as to whether one will be
 RB> caught to be punished, and convicted if caught.

You can bet your sweet bippy that if you're overactive in pirating
copyright material here in the US, you will be caught. The only question
is when, not if.

 RB> Petty theft is not usually punished, since the culprit is generally
 RB> not caught.

One would think so, but I've seen the look on petty thieve's faces as
they're detained by in-house detectives who're employed by even the
smallest stores to help keep their bottom line above the 'going out of
business' level. Summer isn't even upon us yet and the local rag already
has a full page of arrest reports listed. Not all of them for petty theft,
of course.

 RB> That applies even if the crime takes place in your own city.

Not this city of 50k+.

 RB> Now just imagine the conviction rate when the culprit lives in
 RB> another state or even outside the USA, as is frequently the case with
 RB> Internet crime.

My friend Andrew has quite an extensive collection to music copied from
the internet, CDs, etc.. For a time, he was worried that he'd be visited
by the FBI and taken away for doing this. I told him that it probably
wouldn't happen anytime soon, unless you also have a history of selling
copies you've made from your collection. He stopped downloading music from
the internet anyway.

 RB> With some exceptions for major operations (MegaUpload in the case of
 RB> file sharing) and some financial scams (the kind that aren't operated
 RB> from places like Uzbekistan), the chance of being caught is almost
 RB> nil, and the deterrent value of even draconian punishments (on paper)
 RB> is nearly zero.

I haven't heard of anyone being arrested lately, but there was a time in
recent history that there seemed to be reports of visitations by the FBI
in all parts of the US, reported on the news.

It might be that it's an election year and the FBI has been told to lay
off until after the election is over.

 RB> I agree that governments have to at least pro forma establish rules
 RB> and punishments for breaking those rules, but the deterrent value is
 RB> often negligible and shouldn't be overestimated.

One shouldn't have to worry about those rules unless one is in the
business of pirating copyright material...it then becomes incumbant upon
you to know the 'ropes'...

                R\%/itt



... besides, IMNSHO, Ward Dossche should resign as ZC2 and surrender his
... net node-number to the ZCC !            - Cato the Elder -


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Fidonews v29 n18 run by me.

Roy Witt — Fri, 18 May 2012 05:32:12 GMT

17 May 12 19:29, Robert Bashe wrote to Bj*rn Felten:

 RB> Bj*rn Felten wrote to Roy Witt on Thursday May 17 2012 at 17:36:

 BF>> Search Amazon for e.g. copies of one of the best movies I know of --
 BF>> "Pimpernel Smith" -- and you'll find not one single copy offered by
 BF>> the copyright holder, but several dozens of copies made on VHS by
 BF>> people who have recorded it from TV on VHS. All the copies range
 BF>> well above $30 per (pirated) copy, and it's legal, yes?

 RB> Which Amazon are you talking about? I checked the Amazon.de and
 RB> Amazon.com and could find only VHS copies (legal, not private copies)
 RB> and there's also a DVD out.

I found what he mentioned on Amazon.com...legal copies, not private
copies.

 RB> There_are_ films you can't buy legally because they're simply not
 RB> sold (anymore), such as Disney's "Song of the South", a wonderful
 RB> children's film which in the USA is now considered racist (an
 RB> exceedingly stupid and provincial attitude if you know the film) and
 RB> is not released for sale by Disney (but is available outside the
 RB> USA). But "Pimpernel Smith" isn't one of them.

I have a legal copy of Song of the South on VHS ... Pimpernel Smith is the
same movie as the one titled Scarlet Pimpernel, same starring actor with
a different story line, made around the same year as PS.

                R\%/itt



... besides, IMNSHO, Ward Dossche should resign as ZC2 and surrender his
... net node-number to the ZCC !            - Cato the Elder -


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Janis defintions...

Roy Witt — Fri, 18 May 2012 05:18:28 GMT

18 May 12 00:42, Ward Dossche wrote to Roy Witt:

 RW>> You can thank Ward for that fuck up, since he's the person at fault
 RW>> for not allowing policy to be changed under his watch as IC.

 WD> What? You mean there is no ZCC-archive from that period to set the
 WD> record straight?

Well, there is this:

From: Philip Lozier
To: Janis Kracht
Date: 29th March, 2004 at 17:39
Subject: More: re: Pre-announcement of "an issue"
Replies: First to this

 JK> Could be time..

I really hope so... the guy is actually scary of late.  It seems when the
ZCC overuled him that he immediately started questioning the validity of a
couple of zones, and even the weight of zones votes based on population.

Look at what he did with the policy change bit... with all issues of the
proposal on the table aside, and noting that the gathering started out in
good numbers... he actually tried to dictate the process, as I understand
it right to the point of outright threats to Z2 RC's.

This guy has quite a little bubble going on that needs to be popped.

I think he's been sitting on his throne a little too long and it's going
to his head.

Phil

 WD> Of course there isn't one, why would there be?

Not to mention; There is still that bubble you're wearing.


                R\%/itt



... besides, IMNSHO, Ward Dossche should resign as ZC2 and surrender his
... net node-number to the ZCC !            - Cato the Elder -

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Janis defintions...

mark lewis — Fri, 18 May 2012 12:25:40 GMT

 DS>> How could the ZC1 have vetoed anything with respect to echomail.
 DS>> Not possible.

 MvdV>> She could have vetoed the two RCs decision to block
 MvdV>> distribution of the fidonews file echo.

 ml> no she could not have... that is outside the purvue of her backbone
 ml> hub status... and RCs didn't block the distribution, either... that
 ml> was another two backbone hubs... again, backbone hub operations are
 ml> not in the same purvue as *C positions... you are trying to mix apples
 ml> and oranges...

 MvdV> You are trying to throw a smoke screen. You keep forgetting - or
 MvdV> ignoring - that the three NAB sysops ALSO carry *C hats.

no, i am not... i am seeing that they are wearing their backbone
distribution hats when it comes to backbone operations... they are not
abusing their *C hats by trying to wear them where they have no
governance...


 MvdV> Two RCs and one ZC. The two RCs and the ZC have an obligation to 
 MvdV> make Fidonews available.

read P4 again... it says "coordinate" and it seems that that is being done...

)\/(ark

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Re: Janis defintions...

Ward Dossche — Fri, 18 May 2012 15:44:46 GMT

Bob,
 
RB> Can't we finally lay this to rest? The ZCC archive regarding your
RB> problems as IC exists and won't disappear. Anything else is history,
RB> unless you or someone else has an archive of the echo and cares to
RB> publish it.
 
I don't keep archives ... they serve no purpose other than harassing
others. Just the last 100 messages or so.

 
 \%/@rd

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Wards definition of

Robert Bashe — Fri, 18 May 2012 11:23:00 GMT

Ward Dossche wrote to Roy Witt on Friday May 18 2012 at 09:41:

WD> You do seem to write an awful lot of messages to me nevertheless. So
WD> are Ross, Janis, Dale ...

... and me.

You write a lot, too. And some of what you write differs "slightly"
from historical fact. You have a chance to correct false impressions,
but so do others.


My personal impression is that it would be better not to reply to some
of what is written.


Cheers, Bob

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Janis defintions...

Robert Bashe — Fri, 18 May 2012 11:19:24 GMT

Ward Dossche wrote to Roy Witt on Friday May 18 2012 at 00:42:

RW>> You can thank Ward for that fuck up, since he's the person at fault
RW>> for not allowing policy to be changed under his watch as IC.

WD> What? You mean there is no ZCC-archive from that period to set the
WD> record straight?

WD> Of course there isn't one, why would there be?

Can't we finally lay this to rest? The ZCC archive regarding your
problems as IC exists and won't disappear. Anything else is history,
unless you or someone else has an archive of the echo and cares to
publish it.


Cheers, Bob

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Janis defintions...

David Drummond — Fri, 18 May 2012 20:34:56 GMT

On 17/05/12 9:42 PM, Richard Webb -> mark lewis wrote:

 ml>> it is funny how many folk do not seem to understand what
 ml>> "coordinate" means and they think it means that one has to actually
 ml>> provide or make available that which is being coordinated...

 RW> Indeed it is. I argue this one in my outside Fidonet life
 RW> all the time. Coordinator does not mean has to have his
 RW> hands on the levers, just has to "coordinate" the resources, human and
 RW> otherwise to get the job done. It's commonly misunderstood.

Yeah - much as "moderator" is...

-- 

Regards
David

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Re: Janis defintions...

Ward Dossche — Fri, 18 May 2012 10:43:16 GMT

DS> MVDV> Rewriting history? Bullshit! It was nor Ward that was
DS> MVDV> repsonsible for the failure of the last attempt to change
DS> MVDV> P4.
 
DS> I agree with you.  Ward did drag his feet at one stage after we sent him
DS> a finished draft, but eventually got the RCs to look at it.
 
You make it appear as though I opposed the change while I was actually
an avid supporter.

 
The attempt at change occured strictly along predefined paths.
 
 \%/@rd

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Re: Wards definition of

Ward Dossche — Fri, 18 May 2012 10:42:54 GMT

Dale,
 
DS>WD> Even that is an interpretation and an impression.
 
DS> What "that" are you refering to?
 
The "that"-that.
 
DS> "That" the language for election of a ZC is different from the language
DS> for the election (or removal) of the IC?
 
It certainly is.
 
DS> Or "that" you are making things up when you repeat your claim of Z2 has
DS> all the votes?
 
Z2 has a right to be attributed a higher weight in the decision making
process, if there ever still is going to be one, such as Z1 exercised
it in the pre-1994 days when it was larger and no-one disputed that
...

 
DS> Neither is an interpretation or an impression -- they are direct
DS> readings of what was written in P4 and/or what you have said in this
DS> echo, recently and also in the more distant past.
 
Neither is the Bible an interpretation or an impression. It's a direct
reading of what has been written one day. Nevertheless there are Jews,
Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jehova Witnesses and let's not forget
"Lou De Palingboer" and his followers.

 
 \%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.59
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